a lot of the people in those countries appear to blindly follow some radical teachings. and, they all hate us thats for sure.
had a friend that just got back from spain...he said the whole world hates us, not just the arabs. outside of israel, england and canada, are friends are pretty much none existent.
had a friend that just got back from spain...he said the whole world hates us, not just the arabs. outside of israel, england and canada, are friends are pretty much none existent.
In Hungary people are divided about 50-50 between loving vs. hating America, with close to zero in between. Generally those who did well under communism are pro-America while those who suffered under it are anti-America. Very broad generalization there but it is pretty similar to saying men are taller than women -- another broad generalization with lots of exceptions yet true nonetheless.
You guys that love to talk about how the people of other countries hate the U.S. are faked out and are only seing part of the picture. What you are failing to realize is that these people that "hate" Americans also "hate" everyone else too. They aren't spreading the love all around and only excluding Americans. The poorer the peoples, the deeper their hatred. F*ck 'em all.
The Spainiards hate the English, the Germans, the Russians, definately the Latin-Americans, and the Oriental peoples, as well as Arabs. Who do they like, exactly? And to take it one step further, who gives a f*ck who they like or not? They are far from model citizens of the world. Who put them in a position to pass judgement on everyone else? No one cares.
The Spainiards hate the English, the Germans, the Russians, definately the Latin-Americans, and the Oriental peoples, as well as Arabs. Who do they like, exactly? And to take it one step further, who gives a f*ck who they like or not? They are far from model citizens of the world. Who put them in a position to pass judgement on everyone else? No one cares.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Seymour:
I really cannot stand any of them - I am convinced they all are animals - at the same time all the Arabs I know or have met in the US I thought were really nice people - I have concluded that there is massive religous brainwashing going on over there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree. For the most part, they brainwash each other. It's a self-sustaining mind-f*ck going on over there. Those with half a brain and the means to do it leave to live in the free world.
I really cannot stand any of them - I am convinced they all are animals - at the same time all the Arabs I know or have met in the US I thought were really nice people - I have concluded that there is massive religous brainwashing going on over there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree. For the most part, they brainwash each other. It's a self-sustaining mind-f*ck going on over there. Those with half a brain and the means to do it leave to live in the free world.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xpanda:
Is it much different than us blindly accepting capitalism and christianity or whatever it is we've accepted since childhood? It's easy to criticise that which you don't subscribe to, but much harder to acknowledge that we all do it. It's the 'it' that is different.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's nice, very eloquently put. But my point is that these people hate everyone, including each other (not just the U.S.), and I as well as 100s of millions of other Americans can care less whether people from these toilet countries "like" us or not.
Is it much different than us blindly accepting capitalism and christianity or whatever it is we've accepted since childhood? It's easy to criticise that which you don't subscribe to, but much harder to acknowledge that we all do it. It's the 'it' that is different.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's nice, very eloquently put. But my point is that these people hate everyone, including each other (not just the U.S.), and I as well as 100s of millions of other Americans can care less whether people from these toilet countries "like" us or not.
Something I posted at another forum which seems germane to the topic:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
You're Wrong About Islam. And Islam is Wrong About You.
Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:42 pm
Phaedrus
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 1428
I can prove it.
In the interest of fairness I have attempted to address the below with some flaming West-hating five-prayers-a-day bona fide Islamofascists, and their reaction weas pretty much the same as I expect that from the flaming Islamophobes at this forum to be, with the names juxtaposed.
Islamofascists complain that pretty much everything to do with the West (with the possible exception of monetary aid and military support from same) is not only bad, but is an outright, overt danger to the Islamic way of life. Most seem to believe that enforced and total segregation (except for money and F-16s and such) is the only way to preserve Islamic tradition, and a small portion of them believe that the West should simply be eradicated from the face of the earth.
Islamophobes complain that pretty much everything to do with Islamic nations (with the possible exception of oil) is not only bad, but is an outright, overt danger to the Western way of life. Most seem to believe that enforced and total segregation (except for the oil) is the only way to preserve Western tradition, and a small portion of them believe that the Islamic nations should simply be eradicated from the face of the earth.
So, let me make the same challenge to you people as I have made to my Islamic Jihad-esque online contacts (or perhaps more correctly characterised as "jihadabees" since most of them are college students in California who have never missed a meal in their life and just need something to bitch about.)
In the context of your stock arguments against Islam, please explain the following fact:
One of the most free and prosperous nations on earth is an Islamic dictatorship.
I'm talking of course about the United Arab Emirates. UAE is a 96% practicing Muslim state that follows Islamic law in its courts (it does have seperate courts for foreigners and business.) UAE is a member of OPEC, provided at least nominal support for the regime of Saddam Hussein (after Jordan they were the second-largest food exporter to Iraq during the twelve years of economic sanctions) and they were one of just three nations in the world to recognise the Taliban as the "legitimate" rulers of Afghanistan (the others were our alleged allies, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.)
There are no elections in UAE. The same head of state has been in power since the country was formed from seven seperate emirates and granted independence from the UK in 1971. It is illegal to form an opposition political party.
In other words, at a glance UAE is a fairly typical camel-****er club out in the Sahara.
Except ...
Unlike most other Islamic nations, UAE is not living in the Stone Age. In fact, they are in the top 30 nations in the world for per capita GDP, and far surpass any other Arab nation in that regard. Literacy is high, Internet use is comparable to most G8 nations, they have the busiest seaport and one of the busiest airports in the world, no crime worth mentioning, no racial tensions that are noticeable, and no religious-cultural tensions of any note.
And further to that last point -- there are Muslims, Christians, Hindus, and Jews in UAE, all free to worship however they please. And nobody blows anybody else up.
There is zero income tax, sales tax or proerty tax -- government revenue comes almost exclusively from excises and oil revenues.
But speaking of oil, unlike most OPEC nations, UAE is not chained to its oil as a source of revenue -- in fact it makes up less than one-third of the GDP and 45% of government revenue. And that's going down steadily.
Despite the ubiquity of Islamic law and tradition, miniskirts are as common in the streets of Dubai as burkhas. There are bars and nightclubs in this principal city of UAE, and in the hotels the bars serve liquor 24 hours a day to guests.
There's talk about legalising online sportsbooks. Imagine that, an Islamic dictatorship becoming a hub of online gambling.
How an this be? How can the (apparently) fragile moral infrastructure of Islam withstand this full-on onslaught of Westernism? And how can Christians, Hindus, and Jews live a free and prosperous life in a virtually unregulated, untaxed environment under the auspices of a nigh-omnipotent Islamic rule?
Three easy words: pure, unbridled capitalism.
UAE, like most oil-rich nations, sat on its oil for decades before it occured to anyone to dig it up. In 1973, two years after independence, oil was discovered, and of course nationalised (it is, after all, an Islamic dictatorship.) Revenue, however, was not diverted to buying chateaus in France and Picassos and stretch Cadillac Fleetwoods and whatnot for the emris and their brothers and cousins and sons and so forth. it was instead diverted into developing the non-oil infrastructure of the country, which resulted in an economic boom across all sectors (and with the attendant explosion of jobs, an immigration boom commenced as well -- in fact, even today fully 80% of UAE's population is non-native [although the overwhelming majority is still Muslim.])
This had an effect on the region which no one seems to have anticipated: investor capital, domestic and foreign, became very keen on UAE, especially Dubai, which is today inarguably the jewel of the Arabian Peninsula.
And then along came Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum. Since becoming the emir of Dubai and second in command of UAE in 1990, Maktoum has almost single-handedly caused the GDP of Dubai alone to shoot from $ 8 billion to $ 20 billion per year (with overall UAE figures in the mid-50's.) Spearheading such projects as the Jebel Ali Free Zone, Dubai Internet City, the newly-chartered Dubai International Financial Centre (which will poise the UAE as a major player in the offshore finance and asset protection industry) and other major projects, Maktoum has drastically reduced UAE's dependence on oil receipts for revenue, while fostering an atmosphere of bustling commerce (more than 1,500 American and European firms have operations in Dubai alone) peace and personal freedom -- but again, has done it all within the confines of an Islamic dictatorship.
So again, you're wrong if you attempt to make vacuous blanket generalisations about Islam as a culture or Muslims as a people. You are just as wrong as idiotic radical pundits who attempt to engender hatred through envy of all of the values we create in Western society. And far form being a "we agree to disagree" forum issue, the United Arab Emirates is living, shining, beautiful proof of the idea. It even goes the extra mile and debunks most Democrats as well, since its strong capitalistic policies have created an environment that most lefties would prefer to pretend is impossible without the Nanny State draining tax dollars from the public to pay for the poor, the sick, the elderly, the young, etc. No extra charge for that one.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I should point out two corrections which were made afterwards: first, the actualy percentage of people in the UAE who are practicing Muslims is 64% -- still a significant majority but not the 96% cited above (which was taken from The CIA World Factbook and accounts only for the native population.) Second, the literacy rate among natives of the UAE is actually on the low end of the scale at 75%, not "high" as I said above. The figures I had on literacy reflected the total population figure and not the native figures.
The point is the same nevertheless: the UAE is a fúcking fabulous rebuttal of both sides of the argument. All you need is trade, buh-dah-di-dah-dah.
Phaedrus
Phaedrus
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
You're Wrong About Islam. And Islam is Wrong About You.
Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:42 pm
Phaedrus
Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 1428
I can prove it.
In the interest of fairness I have attempted to address the below with some flaming West-hating five-prayers-a-day bona fide Islamofascists, and their reaction weas pretty much the same as I expect that from the flaming Islamophobes at this forum to be, with the names juxtaposed.
Islamofascists complain that pretty much everything to do with the West (with the possible exception of monetary aid and military support from same) is not only bad, but is an outright, overt danger to the Islamic way of life. Most seem to believe that enforced and total segregation (except for money and F-16s and such) is the only way to preserve Islamic tradition, and a small portion of them believe that the West should simply be eradicated from the face of the earth.
Islamophobes complain that pretty much everything to do with Islamic nations (with the possible exception of oil) is not only bad, but is an outright, overt danger to the Western way of life. Most seem to believe that enforced and total segregation (except for the oil) is the only way to preserve Western tradition, and a small portion of them believe that the Islamic nations should simply be eradicated from the face of the earth.
So, let me make the same challenge to you people as I have made to my Islamic Jihad-esque online contacts (or perhaps more correctly characterised as "jihadabees" since most of them are college students in California who have never missed a meal in their life and just need something to bitch about.)
In the context of your stock arguments against Islam, please explain the following fact:
One of the most free and prosperous nations on earth is an Islamic dictatorship.
I'm talking of course about the United Arab Emirates. UAE is a 96% practicing Muslim state that follows Islamic law in its courts (it does have seperate courts for foreigners and business.) UAE is a member of OPEC, provided at least nominal support for the regime of Saddam Hussein (after Jordan they were the second-largest food exporter to Iraq during the twelve years of economic sanctions) and they were one of just three nations in the world to recognise the Taliban as the "legitimate" rulers of Afghanistan (the others were our alleged allies, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.)
There are no elections in UAE. The same head of state has been in power since the country was formed from seven seperate emirates and granted independence from the UK in 1971. It is illegal to form an opposition political party.
In other words, at a glance UAE is a fairly typical camel-****er club out in the Sahara.
Except ...
Unlike most other Islamic nations, UAE is not living in the Stone Age. In fact, they are in the top 30 nations in the world for per capita GDP, and far surpass any other Arab nation in that regard. Literacy is high, Internet use is comparable to most G8 nations, they have the busiest seaport and one of the busiest airports in the world, no crime worth mentioning, no racial tensions that are noticeable, and no religious-cultural tensions of any note.
And further to that last point -- there are Muslims, Christians, Hindus, and Jews in UAE, all free to worship however they please. And nobody blows anybody else up.
There is zero income tax, sales tax or proerty tax -- government revenue comes almost exclusively from excises and oil revenues.
But speaking of oil, unlike most OPEC nations, UAE is not chained to its oil as a source of revenue -- in fact it makes up less than one-third of the GDP and 45% of government revenue. And that's going down steadily.
Despite the ubiquity of Islamic law and tradition, miniskirts are as common in the streets of Dubai as burkhas. There are bars and nightclubs in this principal city of UAE, and in the hotels the bars serve liquor 24 hours a day to guests.
There's talk about legalising online sportsbooks. Imagine that, an Islamic dictatorship becoming a hub of online gambling.
How an this be? How can the (apparently) fragile moral infrastructure of Islam withstand this full-on onslaught of Westernism? And how can Christians, Hindus, and Jews live a free and prosperous life in a virtually unregulated, untaxed environment under the auspices of a nigh-omnipotent Islamic rule?
Three easy words: pure, unbridled capitalism.
UAE, like most oil-rich nations, sat on its oil for decades before it occured to anyone to dig it up. In 1973, two years after independence, oil was discovered, and of course nationalised (it is, after all, an Islamic dictatorship.) Revenue, however, was not diverted to buying chateaus in France and Picassos and stretch Cadillac Fleetwoods and whatnot for the emris and their brothers and cousins and sons and so forth. it was instead diverted into developing the non-oil infrastructure of the country, which resulted in an economic boom across all sectors (and with the attendant explosion of jobs, an immigration boom commenced as well -- in fact, even today fully 80% of UAE's population is non-native [although the overwhelming majority is still Muslim.])
This had an effect on the region which no one seems to have anticipated: investor capital, domestic and foreign, became very keen on UAE, especially Dubai, which is today inarguably the jewel of the Arabian Peninsula.
And then along came Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum. Since becoming the emir of Dubai and second in command of UAE in 1990, Maktoum has almost single-handedly caused the GDP of Dubai alone to shoot from $ 8 billion to $ 20 billion per year (with overall UAE figures in the mid-50's.) Spearheading such projects as the Jebel Ali Free Zone, Dubai Internet City, the newly-chartered Dubai International Financial Centre (which will poise the UAE as a major player in the offshore finance and asset protection industry) and other major projects, Maktoum has drastically reduced UAE's dependence on oil receipts for revenue, while fostering an atmosphere of bustling commerce (more than 1,500 American and European firms have operations in Dubai alone) peace and personal freedom -- but again, has done it all within the confines of an Islamic dictatorship.
So again, you're wrong if you attempt to make vacuous blanket generalisations about Islam as a culture or Muslims as a people. You are just as wrong as idiotic radical pundits who attempt to engender hatred through envy of all of the values we create in Western society. And far form being a "we agree to disagree" forum issue, the United Arab Emirates is living, shining, beautiful proof of the idea. It even goes the extra mile and debunks most Democrats as well, since its strong capitalistic policies have created an environment that most lefties would prefer to pretend is impossible without the Nanny State draining tax dollars from the public to pay for the poor, the sick, the elderly, the young, etc. No extra charge for that one.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I should point out two corrections which were made afterwards: first, the actualy percentage of people in the UAE who are practicing Muslims is 64% -- still a significant majority but not the 96% cited above (which was taken from The CIA World Factbook and accounts only for the native population.) Second, the literacy rate among natives of the UAE is actually on the low end of the scale at 75%, not "high" as I said above. The figures I had on literacy reflected the total population figure and not the native figures.
The point is the same nevertheless: the UAE is a fúcking fabulous rebuttal of both sides of the argument. All you need is trade, buh-dah-di-dah-dah.
Phaedrus
Phaedrus
posted by xpanda:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Is it much different than us blindly accepting capitalism and christianity or whatever it is we've accepted since childhood?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just an aside, but to cite capitalism as an ideology along the lines of a religion, whether for or against it, is ludicrous. Like gravity, capitalism doesn't care if you believe in it or not.
Phaedrus
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Is it much different than us blindly accepting capitalism and christianity or whatever it is we've accepted since childhood?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just an aside, but to cite capitalism as an ideology along the lines of a religion, whether for or against it, is ludicrous. Like gravity, capitalism doesn't care if you believe in it or not.
Phaedrus
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phaedrus:
posted by xpanda:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Is it much different than us blindly accepting capitalism and christianity or whatever it is we've accepted since childhood?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just an aside, but to cite capitalism as an ideology along the lines of a religion, whether for or against it, is ludicrous. Like gravity, capitalism doesn't care if you believe in it or not.
Phaedrus<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nice, Phaedrus. I'm glad someone was paying attention.
posted by xpanda:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Is it much different than us blindly accepting capitalism and christianity or whatever it is we've accepted since childhood?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just an aside, but to cite capitalism as an ideology along the lines of a religion, whether for or against it, is ludicrous. Like gravity, capitalism doesn't care if you believe in it or not.
Phaedrus<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nice, Phaedrus. I'm glad someone was paying attention.
I never said capitalism was an ideology. I claimed that it is something that many Westerners accept (not believe in) without question.
And your gravity/capitalism comparison is a bit of a stretch. First, capitalism requires the existence of human beings to exist. Gravity does not. Second, gravity has stood the test of time. Capitalism has not (nor has it failed.) Your well written prose above is itself based upon a mere 14 years of unfettered capitalism. Capitalism, like any economic theory, is a social science based on, obviously, society ... when capitalism such as that found in the UAE survives several generations and the peace still exists, perhaps then a correlation can be made. I think your assertions are premature. (Although, note, that I do tend to agree. I just wouldn't state it as though it were fact.)
And your gravity/capitalism comparison is a bit of a stretch. First, capitalism requires the existence of human beings to exist. Gravity does not. Second, gravity has stood the test of time. Capitalism has not (nor has it failed.) Your well written prose above is itself based upon a mere 14 years of unfettered capitalism. Capitalism, like any economic theory, is a social science based on, obviously, society ... when capitalism such as that found in the UAE survives several generations and the peace still exists, perhaps then a correlation can be made. I think your assertions are premature. (Although, note, that I do tend to agree. I just wouldn't state it as though it were fact.)
American,
Your fearless leader seems to care about the level of anti-American sentiment, otherwise why would he make any international summits on issues of disagreement? Do you really think he'd be better off just telling other nations' heads of state to f... off?
Phaedrus,
Very interesting read. I wonder what Osama Bin Laden thinks of the UAE. Does he see them as an ally or as a puppet regime sucking up to the west? I would assume the latter.
Your fearless leader seems to care about the level of anti-American sentiment, otherwise why would he make any international summits on issues of disagreement? Do you really think he'd be better off just telling other nations' heads of state to f... off?
Phaedrus,
Very interesting read. I wonder what Osama Bin Laden thinks of the UAE. Does he see them as an ally or as a puppet regime sucking up to the west? I would assume the latter.
DP: Do you really think he'd be better off just telling other nations' heads of state to f... off?
BAR: Welll, since 9/11/01 we kinda have, in that we tell them how it is and how it's gonna be and then You're Either For Us Or Against Us.
Props to Spain and Honduras for removing their troops from the killing fields.
BAR: Welll, since 9/11/01 we kinda have, in that we tell them how it is and how it's gonna be and then You're Either For Us Or Against Us.
Props to Spain and Honduras for removing their troops from the killing fields.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by truthteller:
Most of those people that hate America would love to be in America. I met a lady from Iran that would talk the worse shit about the states but in the next breath told me her family got rejected for visas by the US embassy in CR.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's what I'm talking about.
I was in a sandwich shop the other night when a few Middle-Easterners walked in. There were weird glances and you could sense that they weren't comfortable around strangers, and they were very alert, like the animals on the bottom of the food chain are alert. But as bad as things have gotten for them in the U.S., they're not in any hurry to emigrate back to the toilet countries they came from.
They want to live in the U.S. but they hate American people. That doesn't even make sense, but that's the way it is. I believe that this "hate" is based in jealousy and envy over that fact the this great land is the birthright of all Americans, and they're on the outside looking in.
Also, part of it may stem from the fact that when they lay eyes on an American, they sense that they are genetically inferior to the fine people of the U.S.A.
Most of those people that hate America would love to be in America. I met a lady from Iran that would talk the worse shit about the states but in the next breath told me her family got rejected for visas by the US embassy in CR.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's what I'm talking about.
I was in a sandwich shop the other night when a few Middle-Easterners walked in. There were weird glances and you could sense that they weren't comfortable around strangers, and they were very alert, like the animals on the bottom of the food chain are alert. But as bad as things have gotten for them in the U.S., they're not in any hurry to emigrate back to the toilet countries they came from.
They want to live in the U.S. but they hate American people. That doesn't even make sense, but that's the way it is. I believe that this "hate" is based in jealousy and envy over that fact the this great land is the birthright of all Americans, and they're on the outside looking in.
Also, part of it may stem from the fact that when they lay eyes on an American, they sense that they are genetically inferior to the fine people of the U.S.A.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Also, part of it may stem from the fact that when they lay eyes on an American, they sense that they are genetically inferior to the fine people of the U.S.A. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sounds like Hitler talking about Jews.
wil.
Sounds like Hitler talking about Jews.
wil.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Also, part of it may stem from the fact that when they lay eyes on an American, they sense that they are genetically inferior to the fine people of the U.S.A. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Stupidest thing I have seen written in a while.
Stupidest thing I have seen written in a while.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Just an aside, but to cite capitalism as an ideology along the lines of a religion, whether for or against it, is ludicrous. Like gravity, capitalism doesn't care if you believe in it or not.
Phaedrus<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So like gravity and air, you cant control it, charge anyone for it, and we all get an equal share of it..er....like...communism...
So its capitocommunism. kewl.
Hey this doublespeak gobbleldygook is easy once you try it.
--------------------------------------
And these capitalist diamonds that keep coming up, they're all pissant countries that exploit a loophole in the vast surrounding region.
Hong Kong: Sits next to China, and was a doorway for western stuff.
Switzerland: Dodgy banking capital of Europe, land of the bearer bond bank account.
UAE: A haven for every rich islamic dude in the area who's desperate for a shag (not necesessarily with a girlie) and a sip of whisky (at $4 a shot in the 80's I may add).
And a good place for his dodgy bank account too.
[This message was edited by eek on April 20, 2004 at 10:10 PM.]
Just an aside, but to cite capitalism as an ideology along the lines of a religion, whether for or against it, is ludicrous. Like gravity, capitalism doesn't care if you believe in it or not.
Phaedrus<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So like gravity and air, you cant control it, charge anyone for it, and we all get an equal share of it..er....like...communism...
So its capitocommunism. kewl.
Hey this doublespeak gobbleldygook is easy once you try it.
--------------------------------------
And these capitalist diamonds that keep coming up, they're all pissant countries that exploit a loophole in the vast surrounding region.
Hong Kong: Sits next to China, and was a doorway for western stuff.
Switzerland: Dodgy banking capital of Europe, land of the bearer bond bank account.
UAE: A haven for every rich islamic dude in the area who's desperate for a shag (not necesessarily with a girlie) and a sip of whisky (at $4 a shot in the 80's I may add).
And a good place for his dodgy bank account too.
[This message was edited by eek on April 20, 2004 at 10:10 PM.]
